McElroy or Mickelson? 
Mr Justice Lavan, who was appointed to the High Court in 1989, was a co-founder of the Free Legal Advice Centres found throughout Ireland, has represented Ireland to the European Association of Judges and the second World-Wide Common Law, and is a member of the Panels of Conciliators and Arbitrators of the International Centre for Investment Disputes. Below is an interview conducted by Le-ann Campbell.
As Free Legal Aid is an interest of mine and one of the reason's as to why I chose to interview Mr Justice Lavan, he was kind enough to bring me the booklet of FLAC's 40th year anniversary and a newspaper cut-out celebrating its out-standing work. The interview lasted nearly two-hours as Mr Justice Lavan over-whelmed me with his stories, advice and the time he so willingly took to conduct this interview.
- What were you doing at my age?(22)
'James Stephens once said in his book 'The Crock of Gold' that 'Knowledge becomes a lumber in a week therefore get rid of it.'
"I spent three years from 18-21 working to make money and so I hitch-hiked through Europe, the Middle East and lastly North Africa. At 21 I awoke in Tunisia to hear the bells of the morning workers, that they wore around their necks and at that point I decided it was time that I put on a three-pieace suit and do this. At fifteen years of age I knew that I wanted to pursue a career in law. For a young boy I had a keen interest in historical buildings, museums ands so when my neighbour offered to taker me to the four courts where he worked as a civil servant I jumped at the chance. He brought me into the courts in a dark miserable winter's day and the Supreme Court was dark with dimmed lights and what I heard I knew at that moment this is for me."
- How did you get to where you are today?
'Napoleon when appointing his martial's said 'not only are they good, they are lucky'.
"I was called to the bar in July 1969 and like all devils I was penniless so in Easter of 1970 my friend and fellow colleague discussed our options and so we decided to go State-side. After a matter of applying to twenty-three law firms I received affirmatives from only five. Judge Lavan jokingly informed me that the one he desired was addressed to Miss Vivian Lavan, as a result of the hype Over Vivian Lee, the American firm failed to grasp the applicant was infact a man.
So I went to Chicago and David (Walsh) followed and at that time in Chicago it helped to be Irish, infact nearly two thirds of the judiciary were of Irish distraction." Again the modest nature of Judge Lavan was apparent.
He explained that a combination of travel, working in America and his looking to politics when he returned to Ireland gave him a tremendous insight and all-round knowledge that only variety can give.
- Who was the most influential person in your life and why?
"Dom Eugene Boylan. A Cistercian monk of Roscrea, I remember when I was seventeen sitting in an unsupervised class until the door opened and there stood Dom Eugene Boylan, six ft two, bowl haircut, horn rimmed glasses dressed in the brown robe. As he entered the class silence descended, he strode to the lectern and said 'I sat on one of the ten commissions that split the atom if you wish to listen to me you may'. Then he did the most amazing thing, he opened the window and threw out the textbooks, no teacher or person of authority had ever done this before, he said to us 'for once think for you'. Judge Lavan clearly impressed by his mentor went on to describe the life this amazing monk had led and so told stories of daily life with this school teacher, the man Judge Lavin believes moulded him into the man he has become today. Dom Eugene Boylan was a layman in Vienna when he was working on the atom, before being ordained a priest he dated Sigmund Freuds Daughter, and unlike most first encounters with parents this was as you can imagine very different. He joined the Cistercians in Roscrea only after being refused from many missions previous, but was accepted into Roscrea on a six month basis only to stay for the rest of his life and to be ordained Lord Abbot."
Judge Lavan as a boy of seventeen along with his peers was for the first time asked or encouraged to think outside the box as a result of the genius ways of his mentor Dom Eugene Boylan."
- Who do you value most in life?
"Well obviously Family.
My eldest son studied Classics at Trinity (said with a joking disapproval as Judge Lavan along with the rest of his children are UCD graduates). He then read two-year masters in Science of a foreign service in Georgia and worked for McKenzie & Co, although very successful in the commerce business he returned home to study Latin in Cambridge. The second son Viv (named after his dad) is also a barrister down the law library and a UCD graduate. Like his dad and older brother, Viv also travelled and spent a year working in Sydney before returning to embark on his legal profession.
Naomi followed her mother's path and is a Medical doctor. She was quickly appointed SHO but now at twenty-eight she is studying radiology oncology at St Lucans. Like any family you get in trouble when difference are made between children but Judge told me that at Naomi's graduation he was unexpectedly surprised with being asked in O'Reilly hall( the graduation hall in UCD) if this was the best day and he , to two sons shock replied yes!
The youngest Sarah and his 'princess' graduated two years ago with a first class honours in social science. At present she is travelling Cambodia to Vietnam and everywhere in between. Once the travelling is out of her system she intends to specialise in Speech therapy.
The main person is clearly my wife. I said she is a doctor like your daughter but I was corrected that "she is a mum. In her final year at university she gave birth to our oldest son, she completed her internship in St Vincent's hospital and a children's hospital but gave it up to rear our four children. He explains that she is a marvellous woman as she returned to work when the children were all grown up to be made Area Medical Officer of Wicklow. She has read two years in Child psychology and inoculates 65 schools a year."
Mr Justice Lavan talked very affectionately about each one of his family and it is clear to see that the detailed accounts he gave prove not only is he very proud of his children but also that although a very successful man professionally, he is without question a family man.
- What advice would you give to a young university graduate from Ireland?
"Simply to conclude all you want now before starting your legal profession. Finish all Post-graduate work, do the travelling because it is very hard to get off the merry-go round once you get on. Get experience in a foreign country and learn a language because Europe is the future".
Judge Lavan didn't go into too much depth in this question his reasoning being he wanted to return to this question after he learned from me what it is I want to do and more about me before he was to give me advice!
- You have been a Judge for twenty years now in September and a successful practising barrister for twenty years before that, you must have witnessed many changes in the Irish Legal System. What do you consider to be the most positive change?
Well the most positive change is that society has completely opened up. The out-dated old fashioned laws have been thrown out, laws like married couples not being allowed contraception was an utter farce! Another positive aspect to the legal profession is that law students are better educated in terms of the law but that doesn't necessarily mean better people...
The Irish judiciary, in a welcomed manner became much more proactive in areas of Human Rights Legislation where in the past Irish Judges were too frighten to act or make any sort of radical decision. The affects Judges such as J Mc Cartney, J Barrington, J Walsh, and J Henchy had were profound and as a result revolutionised our legal system. They reformed strict law application and put the Constitution into first gear so to speak. Unfortunately if you didn't have the cases then you couldn't develop the law so it wasn't until the seventies that third gear came about. At this time U.S Constitutional developments had a great impact and importance to judicial interpretation and in the sixties and seventies the US Supreme Court was heavily relied upon. (The reasoning for this irish-american approach was due to a great alliance between Judge Brennan of the US Supreme Court and Judge Walsh of the Irish Supreme Court.)
Another positive step and poignant moment in the Irish Legal System was the inclusion into the EEC. The impact the European Convention has on domestic law and the power of the European Court of Justice is profound. It is now a full-time court with forty-six judges, however with a backlog of 80,000 cases.
- What do you consider to be the most negative change?
Negatively obviously the 80,000 backlog is a serious problem that needs addressed and reformed. I mentioned that law students although better educated doesn't necessarily mean they are better people. Maklind in 1905 said that the legal profession is where 'life and law meet'. Court is where practising barristers go to get questions answered and it is up to each individual judge to decide and when making that decision it is up to the judge whether he wants more life or law?"
Good people with just motives, is the message I think Judge Lavan was trying to convey.
- You are co-founder of the Free Legal Advice Centres in Ireland so I can safely assume there is a bleeding heart in there somewhere or at least a definite understanding that circumstance really can affect the application of law. Now in your capacity as Judge do you ever have difficulties resolving the power of a corporate body and its powerful legal team with an injured plaintiff or in a criminal capacity do you find mandatory sentencing difficult?
"Well I've never had a David V Goliath scenario. Yes we all have our biases but the whole purpose of judicial training is to learn how to detach bias from decision making. The mere fact that all decisions can be appealed to the Supreme Court, Luxembourg and Strasbourg means that there is a serious element of control over all judicial decisions.
But the reason I became a Judge was to do justice.
Judge Lavan amazed me with his flower-power past and regaled of college stories of the sixties era founded upon equality and unification. He exclaimed "I grew up in an era of 'San Francisco flowers in your hair' lyrics; the Beatles...inequality was unacceptable. The economy was changing and so too were people. The reason I stuck with law after serious doubts during my second year at university was down to a book I randomly picked up on route to inform my parents of my withdrawal from law. The book was 'the life of Chief Baron Pales' by VT Delaney and the reason he gave for becoming a judge was to 'do justice between man and man'. Mr Justice Lavan has thankfully never looked back since.
- No doubt this year's 40th anniversary of FLAC was a proud moment for you. I am going to ask you to put yourself in m y shoes for a moment, If you were in my position today working with the benefits FLAC, could you identify another 'gap in the market' so to speak or area of need?
"Well World Banking is an area that I don't think anyone understands. With the effects of negative equity everyone is consequentially trapped. People cannot make repayments on their mortgages and so it's a vicious circle. Bush destroyed the American dream of justice and equality under the law, the utter irony of a free trade America adjusting socialist tactics in nationalising was absurd."
- Judge there can be no doubt that you have thus far had a long and celebrated career in the legal profession. To someone looking on it's truly aspirational. I am just curious as to how you feel about it. Do you feel a sense of satisfaction with your life's work or does the eternal grind and seemingly terminal need for conflict resolution wear you down?
"No. (Without any hesitation that the eternal grind doesn't wear him down) The reason why we founded FLAC was to combat the ongoing problem of inequality. Professor Gerry White who wrote the book on Irish Law described me and my felloe founders as pragmatists at a time of socialist going on communist thinking. When I look back to the beginning of our ideal, as law students we asked ourselves what could we do? So we went to conservative institutions such as the law society and Bar council and Deen of UCD. This was our net and our vitality. With a large panel of solicitors court wasn't a worry.
I was also a member of the Legal Aid Board, work that is over-shadowed by the success of FLAC. He clarified the differences between the two organisations and the mere failures of the Legal Aid Board. "It has by no means reached any of its set goals or targets but indeed has enforced the inequality between penniless civil litigants who are put through procedures upon procedures compared to the wealthy criminals who receive legal aid without questions asked."
Another area of law I turned my time to was politics. In 1974 I joined the Fianna Fail Party and by a very strange set of changes I ended up running the communication centre which was obviously a very sensitive and important role to undertake. I worked relentlessly for at least six domestic and two European elections. I would finish work at two in the morning and be up at six to write the daily reports whilst running my legal practice.
When I began my legal practice in 1969 the bar council was out-dated and old fashioned. It was an offence to stay in the law library after 5pm. The practice of the legal express was still prominent and the system needed reform so I ran for election to the bar council in 1969 and became treasurer. Books were at the top of the Judges list as he explained that a bullin and leek was a book of precedence, books of great importance but lacking in numbers.
"books are the tools so I single-handedly rang up and ordered books from everywhere, New Zealand precedence, American Canadian etc and by the time our term break was over forty-eight bullin and leeks gad arrived to the bar council and fellow barristers surprise."
Judge Lavan explained how resources were so limited that as treasurer he took risk to improve the current system so to in turn make the Irish Legal System more in touch with the modern day world. He modestly reminisced with other tales of his initiates.
Judge Lavan explained his life's work with great pride and joy but undoubtedly with great humility. His life achievements are truly over-whelming and impressive.
Before the interview ended he spent much time inquiring as to my goals and professional aspirations. He advised me as to what options are open to me and gave me the benefit of his experience and wisdom. He asked about each one of my family and had a genuine interest in where I came for and hoped to be one day. He is an extra-ordinary man.
